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Attention, business owners and digital marketers! 🔥 Are you tired of being overshadowed by your competitors in Google’s search results? 😩 Well, buckle up because Jason Barnard, the legendary “Brand SERP Guy,” is about to drop some serious knowledge bombs that will blow your mind! 🤯

In this explosive interview, Barnard reveals the secrets behind Google’s Knowledge Graph, a vast encyclopedia for machines with over 50 billion entities and 1,500 billion facts. 🤯 It’s like Wikipedia on steroids, and mastering it is the key to dominating search engine results and attracting your ideal customers. 🎯

But wait, there’s more! 😲 Barnard shares real-life success stories of how his company, Kalicube, has helped clients like a famous actor, a lawyer, and even a CEO reposition themselves as industry superstars. 🌟 One client went from a measly confidence score of 4 to a mind-blowing 24,000 in just two months! 🚀

And get this, Barnard’s proprietary tool, Kalicube Pro, is like having a direct line to Google’s brain. 🧠 It analyzes the search engine’s understanding of your brand, identifies gaps, and helps you fill them, positioning you as the most credible solution for your target audience. 💯

But don’t just take our word for it. Barnard drops truth bombs like, “If you can win the trick on Google, you will win the trick on all of these machines.” 🔥 That’s right, folks, mastering the Knowledge Graph is the key to self-determination in the digital age, giving you control over how machines understand and represent you. 🌐

So, what are you waiting for? 🤔 Click the play button and unlock the secrets to online dominance with Jason Barnard, the Brand SERP Guy! 🔓 Your competitors will be left in the dust, wondering what hit them. 💥

Learn more about Kalicube: https://softwareoasis.com/fourty-one/

Michael Bernzweig [00:00:02]:

I’d like to welcome everyone to Software Spotlight, your front row seat to the latest innovations in software for small business. I’m Michael Bernzweig, your host, and each week we’re joined by executives at leading software companies to get an insider’s perspective on the emerging technologies, business strategies, and market trends shaping the future.

Michael Bernzweig [00:00:24]:

Tune in to stay ahead of the curve on leveraging software to boost productivity

Michael Bernzweig [00:00:29]:

and growth in your business

Michael Bernzweig [00:00:31]:

Be sure to visit our website, softwareoasis.com, to access

Michael Bernzweig [00:00:36]:

our free weekly newsletter and sign up for our upcoming 2024 software webinar series. Today, we’re joined by Jason Barnard. He’s known online as The Brand SERP Guy and he comes to us with a wealth of knowledge on SEO. He joins the podcast to share his experience in digital brand management and controlling your brand narrative in search results.

Michael Bernzweig [00:01:03]:

As the founder of Kalicube, Jason has

Michael Bernzweig [00:01:06]:

over 20 years of experience helping companies optimize their online presence. We’ll dive into Jason’s insights on Google’s Knowledge Graph to build brand authority in search. He hosts a podcast, Branded Search (and Beyond). And with that, I’m going to welcome

Michael Bernzweig [00:01:24]:

you to the show, Jason.

Jason Barnard [00:01:26]:

Thank you very much,

Jason Barnard [00:01:27]:

Michael. One very small correction.

Jason Barnard [00:01:30]:

It’s now more than 25 years, a quarter of a century.

Michael Bernzweig [00:01:34]:


Jason Barnard [00:01:35]:

I started in the year Google was incorporated. They incorporated in September. I launched my first website in December. So Google and I have grown up

Jason Barnard [00:01:44]:

together for 25 years.

Michael Bernzweig [00:01:47]:

Fantastic. And I think the last time we were speaking I mentioned that Software Oasis started in the same month, September of 1998. So definitely an interesting detail there.

Michael Bernzweig [00:01:59]:

But I think I’d be remissed if I did not ask you to give

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:05]:

our listeners a quick little song to open up our episode.

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:11]:

I know our listeners that have been

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:14]:

listening to your Branded Search podcast here,

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:16]:

you open up all the time with songs.

Jason Barnard [00:02:19]:

I do indeed. A quick hello and we’re good to go. Welcome to the show, the audience and Michael.

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:29]:

I love it.

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:29]:

That’s fantastic. And I see your guitar in the background, so obviously the musical background is part of the fabric of Jason.

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:39]:

So that’s excellent. So I was hoping you could give us maybe just a brief overview of

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:48]:

what brought you to where you are

Michael Bernzweig [00:02:50]:

in terms of your journey towards launching Kalicube.

Jason Barnard [00:02:59]:

Right, lovely question. I’ve had quite a rich and varied life. I have a degree in economics and statistical analysis from Liverpool John Moore’s University. I was then a professional musician for ten years.

Jason Barnard [00:03:11]:

Then I was a professional filmmaker and

Jason Barnard [00:03:16]:

web developer and songwriter and voice actor and screenwriter for the Boowa and Kwala series. So music all the way through cartoons, scriptwriting, general creativity. And that means that I am the

Jason Barnard [00:03:32]:

perfect example of somebody who needs to

Jason Barnard [00:03:35]:

manage their personal brand because it’s so rich and I’ve got so many different

Jason Barnard [00:03:39]:

facets to my life and my personal brand.

Jason Barnard [00:03:43]:

And the trick, and this is how I got into managing personal brands, is that I needed to get Google to focus on my current work, which is digital marketer, managing brands in search and indeed across the Internet, rather than focusing on my musical career and my filmmaking career. So what I learned was I can change Google’s focus. I can move it away from something

Jason Barnard [00:04:06]:

like music, which has been a huge

Jason Barnard [00:04:09]:

part of my life, and towards Digital Marketing, helping CEOs and founders of companies, especially startups, manage their personal brand and

Jason Barnard [00:04:18]:

indeed their company’s Digital Marketing strategy. Changing the focus of Google is what I do.

Michael Bernzweig [00:04:25]:

Yeah. So it sounds like really molding your

Michael Bernzweig [00:04:28]:

online vision, identity, corporate structure, kind of

Michael Bernzweig [00:04:33]:

where you’re heading as an entity, as

Michael Bernzweig [00:04:36]:

part of getting things where you want them to be within the Google Knowledge Graph.

Jason Barnard [00:04:44]:

And that’s a good point. You say the word entity and the focus is let’s get Google to understand

Jason Barnard [00:04:49]:

who you are, then we can get it to understand what you do, who you serve, and that you’re an authority within your field.

Jason Barnard [00:04:57]:

And that’s a four-step process that really brings to the fore, as you’ll immediately imagine for a person, that growth in their personal brand, the amplification of their personal brand, pushing them to the fore. If Google thinks you’re a superstar in

Jason Barnard [00:05:11]:

your field, then you probably are.

Michael Bernzweig [00:05:15]:


Michael Bernzweig [00:05:15]:

And let me ask you a question at a high level, because I know we could geek out on this during

Michael Bernzweig [00:05:20]:

the whole podcast, but obviously the big buzz online is E-E-A-T. And at the end of the day, which came first was… the whole

Michael Bernzweig [00:05:35]:

concept of Knowledge Graph and everything that

Michael Bernzweig [00:05:38]:

was going on there, kind of like a predecessor to that, or is it all wrapped up into one, or can you kind of peel that back for us?

Jason Barnard [00:05:48]:

No, it’s a lovely question, very onionesque, as you said, peel back the layers. The Knowledge Graph came first. Now, if you look back historically, Google used links as a measure of credibility, but links are actually just a measure of popularity. So it’s obviously a very bad measure. But it was better than everybody else had back in 1998. And that’s what changed the game in Google’s favor. They can only apply links to a web page or a website. Once they understand who the website owner is and who the author is,

Jason Barnard [00:06:19]:

the content creator, they call it, then they

Jason Barnard [00:06:22]:

can start applying other signals than links. For example, awards, qualifications, customer reviews, peer group approval on social media, other articles written.

Jason Barnard [00:06:33]:

All of that can only come together

Jason Barnard [00:06:37]:

with EEAT expertise, experience, authoritativeness and trustworthiness if it understands who you are, who the content creator is, and who the website owner is.

Jason Barnard [00:06:47]:

So EEAT is the measure of credibility that is replacing links, because links can

Jason Barnard [00:06:54]:

only be applied to websites and web pages, whereas EEAT can be applied to

Jason Barnard [00:06:58]:

website owners and content creators. That’s a huge leap for Google.

Michael Bernzweig [00:07:04]:

Got it.

Michael Bernzweig [00:07:05]:

Very interesting.

Michael Bernzweig [00:07:06]:

And maybe we could start off for our listeners who may be executives at different organizations or developers trying to figure this out.

Michael Bernzweig [00:07:16]:

Maybe we could start off with just a real basic definition of the Knowledge Graph to give people a clear understanding.

Jason Barnard [00:07:26]:

The simplest way to look at the Knowledge Graph is it’s an encyclopedia for machines. So it’s like Wikipedia, but significantly bigger. And I’ll explain in a moment just quite how much bigger it is. It’s a way for machines to understand

Jason Barnard [00:07:40]:

the world like a human would.

Jason Barnard [00:07:44]:

With a huge encyclopedia that it can refer to for the facts about things, people, companies, places, records, music albums, music groups, films, actors, anything that you can identify. In fact, indeed, topics too, such as economics. So it understands economics in an encyclopedic manner in the Knowledge Graph. It understands that Jason Barnard is specialized in Digital Marketing and has a degree in the topic

Jason Barnard [00:08:11]:

of economics in its massive machine encyclopedia.

Jason Barnard [00:08:15]:

And to give you an idea of the size, Wikipedia has 6 million articles. So it’s got articles about 6 million things.

Jason Barnard [00:08:22]:

The Knowledge Graph currently at Google has 50 billion articles, entities and 1,500 billion facts.

Jason Barnard [00:08:31]:

And at that kind of scale, for us as human beings, we can’t really

Jason Barnard [00:08:35]:

get a grasp on it anymore.

Michael Bernzweig [00:08:36]:

Yeah, that’s mind-blowing and at a high level, do you think this was Google’s answer

Michael Bernzweig [00:08:44]:

to the exponential growth of content on the Internet? Needing to find a way to understand

Michael Bernzweig [00:08:51]:

and relate what’s going on on the Internet without physically having to index every

Michael Bernzweig [00:08:59]:

single piece of content on the Internet or somewhere in between?

Jason Barnard [00:09:05]:

Yeah, well, that’s where they’re going, is to index less and less. I’ve got a friend called Gennaro Cuofano who explains this incredibly well. But putting that aside, the Knowledge Graph isn’t the reason they’re indexing less. The Knowledge Graph is that Google have always wanted to understand, but they didn’t

Jason Barnard [00:09:21]:

have the means and the technology to be able to do it.

Jason Barnard [00:09:25]:

So counting words in pages, I mean if we look back. Sorry, I’ll start that sentence again.

Jason Barnard [00:09:29]:

If we look back, Google have always

Jason Barnard [00:09:31]:

been a word-counting and a link-counting machine. And they understand the world

Jason Barnard [00:09:36]:

by word counting, and they understand credibility by link counting.

Jason Barnard [00:09:41]:

Today, they understand the world using the

Jason Barnard [00:09:43]:

Knowledge Graph, at least partially.

Jason Barnard [00:09:46]:

And they understand credibility using EEAT signals applied to the entities that they’ve understood in the Knowledge Graph. So it’s actually a transition to a

Jason Barnard [00:09:54]:

significantly more robust system for judging who

Jason Barnard [00:09:59]:

can solve which problems for whom, and how credible each of those solution providers are. Because at the end of the day, all Google wants to do is bring the solution provider and the solution seeker

Jason Barnard [00:10:10]:

together, and it wants the best possible solution for its users.

Jason Barnard [00:10:15]:

So if you can become understood and

Jason Barnard [00:10:17]:

prove to Google, sorry, let’s start that again.

Jason Barnard [00:10:20]:

If you can become understood as an

Jason Barnard [00:10:21]:

entity, you can explain to Google what you do and by extension who you

Jason Barnard [00:10:26]:

serve and then you can convince that

Jason Barnard [00:10:28]:

you’re the most credible solution. And at that point, as a recommendation,

Jason Barnard [00:10:32]:

Google is obsessed by recommending the best solution to the problem its users have,

Jason Barnard [00:10:37]:

Google will recommend you and not your competitors.

Michael Bernzweig [00:10:40]:

Makes a lot of sense, and I’m right there with you. Obviously, the quality of the results are the key or the foundational layer to what Google is all about. As you mentioned, they want to deliver

Michael Bernzweig [00:10:56]:

the best possible result and finish the search so that the individual does not

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:02]:

have to search further and can go on with their day because they know

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:07]:

they’ve found the answer. So that’s really interesting. So can you explain for us,

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:12]:

obviously you’ve had an interesting journey up until this point.

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:17]:

You’ve had your background in the music industry with launching your WTPL.

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:24]:

That was in the early to late

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:27]:

90s, and you also overlapped that

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:31]:

with your other experience at UpToTen. But I was hoping, can you give

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:36]:

us a little bit of background on what Kalicube does at this point for

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:44]:

companies and what some of the offerings look like?

Michael Bernzweig [00:11:48]:

How is it that the Knowledge Graph integrates with what you’re doing?

Jason Barnard [00:11:54]:

Yeah, well, Kalicube is my third company. I’m an entrepreneur, despite myself, and I created companies to be able to commercially frame what it was I was doing. Initially music, then cartoons for kids and now helping CEOs and founders with their

Jason Barnard [00:12:11]:

personal brand, their reputation, growing their personal

Jason Barnard [00:12:15]:

brand, but also helping them and their companies with their presence in search on Google.

Jason Barnard [00:12:19]:

So it’s any brand. We can manage

Jason Barnard [00:12:22]:

the presence and the representation of any brand in search.

Jason Barnard [00:12:26]:

And the really cool trick is that that’s the surface, that’s what people see.

Jason Barnard [00:12:32]:

How do people perceive you? Through the eyes of the search engine?

Jason Barnard [00:12:36]:

But in order to control what the search engines represent you as, we need

Jason Barnard [00:12:42]:

to get them to understand who you are, understand who you serve, and understand that you’re the best and that, as you will guess, because they’re crawling the Internet

Jason Barnard [00:12:50]:

as you said, we need to prove

Jason Barnard [00:12:52]:

on every single touch point with your audience that you are talking to the right audience, presenting the right solutions to that audience at the right time, in

Jason Barnard [00:13:01]:

the right places, and that you’re serving them incredibly well.

Jason Barnard [00:13:05]:

So we use the idea that Google is watching you every single second of

Jason Barnard [00:13:09]:

every single day, everything you publish, as a way for us to help you

Jason Barnard [00:13:16]:

to build your digital ecosystem, grow your personal brand or grow your brand or your marketing strategy for your company. Because we know that Google is showing

Jason Barnard [00:13:24]:

us what you need to do. Which is what?

Jason Barnard [00:13:26]:

Kalicube Pro. We built a machine called Kalicube Pro that analyzes Google to understand

Jason Barnard [00:13:31]:

what needs to be done, then we do it.

Jason Barnard [00:13:33]:

And then the Kalicube Pro will measure how well Google has received that information, how well we’re doing. So it’s a window into what needs to be done.

Jason Barnard [00:13:40]:

And a KPI for are we doing a good job?

Michael Bernzweig [00:13:44]:

So you have not only the Knowledge

Michael Bernzweig [00:13:46]:

Graph, but you have the tool, the

Michael Bernzweig [00:13:48]:

proprietary tool that you’ve developed to be

Michael Bernzweig [00:13:50]:

able to understand what it is that

Michael Bernzweig [00:13:53]:

Google understands about your entity.

Jason Barnard [00:13:57]:

And if you, if you look at how Google understands you, you can immediately see the gaps in its understanding. So the first thing is to fill in the gap.

Michael Bernzweig [00:14:04]:

Fill in the gap.

Jason Barnard [00:14:05]:

Make sure it’s understood and then say, well, it’s understood this much.

Jason Barnard [00:14:09]:

Now we can expand its knowledge to significantly more information about you. We can build its confidence in that understanding. Then we can build its understanding of your topic.

Jason Barnard [00:14:20]:

Then we can prove by A plus B that you’re the most credible solution for its users.

Michael Bernzweig [00:14:25]:

And this is fascinating because every other SEO agency out there is pushing the

Michael Bernzweig [00:14:32]:

messaging of keywords and content and

Michael Bernzweig [00:14:40]:

regurgitating what’s at the top of the results as what you’re doing. They’re all going to the left and your concept is going to the right.

Michael Bernzweig [00:14:50]:

And clearly looking at some of your clients’ examples and what you’ve been able to accomplish, it’s absolutely brilliant what you’re doing.

Jason Barnard [00:15:00]:

Yeah, I like the way you framed that. We’re going against the grain of the SEO community, but I would now consider

Jason Barnard [00:15:06]:

myself a brand marketer rather than SEO.

Jason Barnard [00:15:10]:

So we take brand, we take marketing and we package it for search engines. And the branding and the marketing is something you should be doing as a business anyway.

Jason Barnard [00:15:17]:

All we’re doing is using Google to

Jason Barnard [00:15:20]:

understand what needs to be done in the branding and marketing. Making sure we’re packaging it for Google so that Google can then understand what you’ve done and then represent it back to your audience through the search results. So at the end of the day, the SEO is the natural extension of

Jason Barnard [00:15:32]:

the good, solid Digital Marketing we’re doing,

Jason Barnard [00:15:35]:

which is brand-focused, which once again, something you should be doing anyway.

Jason Barnard [00:15:40]:

And then our entire approach

Jason Barnard [00:15:46]:

comes from an understanding of Google, understanding the power that Google has, understanding the information that

Jason Barnard [00:15:51]:

Google has, and using that against Google, as it were. So the platform itself, I built nine years ago, and it could already do this nine years ago.

Jason Barnard [00:16:07]:

And we’ve been doing this for nine years. And we’ve got nine years of data.

Jason Barnard [00:16:11]:

1 billion data points from Google that

Jason Barnard [00:16:14]:

allow us to truly understand how Google thinks.

Jason Barnard [00:16:18]:

And Google thinks, in fact, in a relatively simplistic manner, still, it understands by repetition. And if we can repeat enough who

Jason Barnard [00:16:28]:

you are, which audience you serve, why

Jason Barnard [00:16:30]:

you’re credible, and we can get the

Jason Barnard [00:16:32]:

corroborative evidence surrounded around the web, we will convince Google of anything we want to.

Jason Barnard [00:16:37]:

We can feed it with what

Jason Barnard [00:16:39]:

we want and we can get it to jump through hoops and dance to

Jason Barnard [00:16:42]:

our tune, which is delightful.

Michael Bernzweig [00:16:44]:

And there’s a ton of value in that.

Michael Bernzweig [00:16:46]:

Obviously, depending upon the industry, the competition for search results is just growing exponentially. And I think one of the more

Michael Bernzweig [00:17:00]:

interesting thing, I have the opportunity to

Michael Bernzweig [00:17:03]:

speak to founders of all types of

Michael Bernzweig [00:17:06]:

organizations, from early founders that are just getting concepts off the ground, maybe bootstrapped,

Michael Bernzweig [00:17:16]:

all the way up to venture capital backed SaaS companies. And the number one thing that I hear over and over, time and time every day, is the cost of bringing traffic to my site, to my offers, to my webinar, to whatever it is that I am trying to direct traffic to, continues to grow in cost through

Michael Bernzweig [00:17:42]:

traditional paid methods, and continues to deliver less results. So it sounds like this is really an organic strategy to deliver results for organizations that may be having those challenges in other ways.

Jason Barnard [00:18:01]:


Jason Barnard [00:18:02]:

And another interesting point, the kicker for me is Kalicube. Now, we come from a world of SEO, of Google. And my initial focus up until a few years ago was Google, Google, Google.

Jason Barnard [00:18:18]:

And today, our revenue is not driven by Google traffic.

Jason Barnard [00:18:24]:

Very, very, very few of our clients come through Google. What happens is because we’re standing where they’re looking with the right marketing materials. Thanks to the insights we’ve got from

Jason Barnard [00:18:34]:

Google. We’re standing on LinkedIn, we’re standing

Jason Barnard [00:18:37]:

on YouTube. We’re providing the right content to the right person at the right time looking for the solution we can provide.

Jason Barnard [00:18:44]:

That means that it’s already driving business. We don’t need Google. But when people come on sales calls

Jason Barnard [00:18:51]:

with me, they say, well, we saw you on your podcast. We saw you

Jason Barnard [00:18:54]:

on YouTube. I saw one of your articles in Forbes.

Jason Barnard [00:19:00]:

But then when I searched around the

Jason Barnard [00:19:02]:

topic, this red shirt and your name, just kept coming up.

Jason Barnard [00:19:07]:

They were using Google for validation of understanding the topic.

Jason Barnard [00:19:12]:

Then once they’d got me in their brain and this red shirt, they searched my name on Google. I look like a superstar because I’ve managed my personal brand so well. Then they search Kalicube and the message that Google gives them about Kalicube is exactly what they’ve already seen on all these other platforms.

Michael Bernzweig [00:19:26]:

So it reinforces that messaging.

Jason Barnard [00:19:29]:

Yeah. And they’re saying Google, who I trust. I use Google because I trust it is reiterating and confirming what I already thought.

Jason Barnard [00:19:38]:

You are the company and you are

Jason Barnard [00:19:41]:

the person that I need for my

Jason Barnard [00:19:43]:

personal brand or my company brand.

Michael Bernzweig [00:19:45]:


Michael Bernzweig [00:19:46]:

And obviously, I know over the years, obviously you have your book, that you’ve written The Fundamentals of Brand SERPs for Business.

Michael Bernzweig [00:19:55]:

You’ve spoken everywhere and then some all

Michael Bernzweig [00:19:58]:

the way from Brighton SEO to PubCon.

Michael Bernzweig [00:20:01]:

SMX, all of the different leading

Michael Bernzweig [00:20:07]:

engagements around the world.

Michael Bernzweig [00:20:09]:

And I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think all of these

Michael Bernzweig [00:20:14]:

travel is what prompted you to start your podcast.

Michael Bernzweig [00:20:18]:

Is that accurate, to really tie it all together?

Jason Barnard [00:20:24]:

Yeah, no, it is delightful. I mean, I’ve been working on my personal brand for quite a long time.

Jason Barnard [00:20:28]:

Then I figured that just online wasn’t doing it enough, wasn’t enough.

Jason Barnard [00:20:34]:

So I then decided to go offline and bring the offline online with the podcast. So I just went from conference to conference to conference to conference. And I built my place in the SEO and Digital Marketing industries by being

Jason Barnard [00:20:46]:

in front of people all around the

Jason Barnard [00:20:48]:

world all the time and then taking that and bringing it online using the podcast. So I would interview people at conferences, famous people, smart people, interesting people. And it’s what I call bringing the offline online. And the offline drove my career incredibly quickly because I was meeting people. And the online aspect drove Google’s understanding of the growth of my career and

Jason Barnard [00:21:11]:

my status in my industry because I

Jason Barnard [00:21:14]:

was showing it to Google and packaging it for Google. Now Google thinks I’m a superstar in

Jason Barnard [00:21:18]:

the Digital Marketing space, which maybe I am.

Michael Bernzweig [00:21:22]:

There you go. So let me ask you a question. So at a high level, how is

Michael Bernzweig [00:21:28]:

it that a lot of… or maybe

Michael Bernzweig [00:21:33]:

you could give a real example. Can you give an example of a

Michael Bernzweig [00:21:35]:

specific client and how working with Kalicube

Michael Bernzweig [00:21:39]:


Michael Bernzweig [00:21:42]:

worked for their business and using the Knowledge Graph to interact with what they’re doing?

Jason Barnard [00:21:49]:

Well, I’ll give you three examples.

Michael Bernzweig [00:21:51]:


Jason Barnard [00:21:53]:

Number one is a very, very famous

Jason Barnard [00:21:55]:

actor, who I can’t name, who had some bad news.

Jason Barnard [00:22:00]:

The bad news came up onto the first page. There were three or four articles about this bad news. That’s online reputation management.

Jason Barnard [00:22:07]:

They said, well, it’s too much.

Jason Barnard [00:22:10]:

And what we did is get rid of two of them, because what Google wants to do is show a balanced view. And the bad news was dominating too much. And all we then needed to do was to demonstrate to Google that the bad news wasn’t or shouldn’t be a 35% focus on that first page.

Jason Barnard [00:22:25]:

For that actor, it needed to be

Jason Barnard [00:22:27]:

a much smaller focus.

Jason Barnard [00:22:28]:

So we reduced the weight of that

Jason Barnard [00:22:31]:

bad news, which is reputation management. And reputation management comes down to proving to Google that it’s giving an unrealistic or unhelpful or unbalanced view of that person.

Michael Bernzweig [00:22:42]:

Got it.

Jason Barnard [00:22:43]:

The second case is a lawyer who

Jason Barnard [00:22:49]:

you search their name, and it just came up with LinkedIn and a couple of other boring results, and they didn’t

Jason Barnard [00:22:53]:

look impressive at all.

Jason Barnard [00:22:55]:

We built them a Knowledge Panel. They’ve now got the Knowledge Panel cards with their YouTube, their Twitter, who their spouse is, who their company is, and then a description in the Knowledge Panel. And I believe their year of birth or their age. And then People also search for, which is the four faces you see underneath somebody’s Knowledge Panel on the right hand side on Google desktop, who are famous

Jason Barnard [00:23:19]:

lawyers in their field. So now when a prospect is researching which lawyer they’re going to take on, they search the name and they see

Jason Barnard [00:23:28]:

this amazing Knowledge Panel.

Jason Barnard [00:23:29]:

Google is confirming that this person is

Jason Barnard [00:23:33]:

a superstar in their field.

Michael Bernzweig [00:23:35]:


Jason Barnard [00:23:36]:

Google is recommending them saying this person

Jason Barnard [00:23:38]:

is amazing and they’re signing more or

Jason Barnard [00:23:41]:

they’re getting more clients who are bottom

Jason Barnard [00:23:43]:

of funnel, who are thinking or choosing

Jason Barnard [00:23:45]:

between multiple lawyers before signing. So that’s a good example of driving business directly as an individual.

Jason Barnard [00:23:52]:

And the third one is repositioning a brand, a personal brand.

Jason Barnard [00:23:56]:

And we had a CEO. Or we have a CEO of a very, very

Jason Barnard [00:23:59]:

big company who took that company to a multi-million dollar buyout, who then

Jason Barnard [00:24:07]:

left the company and said, well, I’ve got my payoff from my company. I’ve got money. I want to become an investor and an entrepreneur. But Google and my audience see me

Jason Barnard [00:24:15]:

as a CEO. So what we then did is take his personal brand across the entire Internet and we repositioned him as an entrepreneur and an investor, which

Jason Barnard [00:24:26]:

meant reducing the focus on all the stuff about him as a CEO, increasing the focus on everything about him as an entrepreneur, making him stand in places

Jason Barnard [00:24:35]:

where an entrepreneur would naturally stand. And little by little we moved his

Jason Barnard [00:24:40]:

audience’s perception of him from CEO to

Jason Barnard [00:24:43]:

entrepreneur. And Google’s perception of him from CEO to entrepreneur.

Jason Barnard [00:24:47]:

And now he’s getting opportunities as an

Jason Barnard [00:24:50]:

entrepreneur and people perceive him to be

Jason Barnard [00:24:52]:

an entrepreneur. And therefore come to him

Jason Barnard [00:24:54]:

with their projects, their ideas.

Jason Barnard [00:24:57]:

And that is brand repositioning when you’re moving forwards in your career.

Jason Barnard [00:25:01]:

Three great examples of how we can help.

Michael Bernzweig [00:25:04]:

Yeah. And let me ask you, is there application for this framework for local SEO? Is there an application there? So maybe car dealers, plumbers, electricians, those types of entities.

Jason Barnard [00:25:20]:

There is. But generally speaking, local businesses don’t put the budget that’s necessary because obviously redesigning an entire digital ecosystem and building an

Jason Barnard [00:25:31]:

entire Digital Marketing strategy is midterm to

Jason Barnard [00:25:37]:

long term. And most local businesses are struggling day to day. The exceptions would be lawyers, where the payback is relatively high and relatively quick. Maybe car dealerships, I don’t know. But generally speaking, local SEO or local companies are not something we’re particularly relevant for. Not because we can’t do it.

Jason Barnard [00:25:57]:

We can, but because the budget isn’t

Jason Barnard [00:26:00]:

there and the need is too quick. We need results in two

Jason Barnard [00:26:03]:

or three months and that isn’t going to happen with us.

Michael Bernzweig [00:26:06]:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Michael Bernzweig [00:26:08]:

And you talked a little bit about

Michael Bernzweig [00:26:10]:

the volume of results within the Knowledge Graph and the volume of entries.

Michael Bernzweig [00:26:19]:

First off, I guess one question I need to ask you because it’s interesting.

Michael Bernzweig [00:26:24]:

The name Kalicube, did that come from any specific origin or just an interesting brandable name?

Jason Barnard [00:26:34]:

Well, that’s an interesting question from a couple of perspectives, but the main perspective is you either choose a name that

Jason Barnard [00:26:41]:

says what you do. or you choose a name that’s completely unique. And I went for the second one.

Michael Bernzweig [00:26:47]:


Jason Barnard [00:26:48]:

There’s a different strategy for a company.

Jason Barnard [00:26:50]:

Is if I choose to call my

Jason Barnard [00:26:52]:

company what I do. We had a client called Backpacker Job Board.

Jason Barnard [00:26:56]:

So it was a job board for backpackers.

Jason Barnard [00:26:59]:

And the problem with that is you’re

Jason Barnard [00:27:02]:

trying to dominate a generic term in Google.

Jason Barnard [00:27:05]:

So if somebody searches your name, it will show all the different competitors and

Jason Barnard [00:27:10]:

you’re somewhere in there.

Jason Barnard [00:27:11]:

So you have a huge job not only to distinguish yourself with your audience

Jason Barnard [00:27:15]:

from what it is you do

Jason Barnard [00:27:18]:

with all your competitors. So that you stand out in their minds as being the go to place. But also getting Google to understand that you represent your… Sorry.

Jason Barnard [00:27:26]:

That the name is actually a brand

Jason Barnard [00:27:28]:

name and that’s hugely difficult.

Jason Barnard [00:27:32]:

And you were talking about crowds and going left as opposed to right.

Michael Bernzweig [00:27:36]:


Jason Barnard [00:27:37]:

That’s the equivalent of fighting your way

Jason Barnard [00:27:39]:

to the front of a huge crowd.

Jason Barnard [00:27:41]:

So you can stand in front of the crowd and go, look at me, look at me, look at me. And get the crowd then to become your client. If you can win that, it’s a

Jason Barnard [00:27:48]:

huge game to win, but it’s hugely

Jason Barnard [00:27:50]:

difficult because you’re fighting to get to the front of a huge, very tightly-packed crowd who don’t want to let you through. However, if you pick a name like

Jason Barnard [00:27:58]:

Kalicube, you break off from the crowd.

Jason Barnard [00:28:01]:

You distinguish yourself, and then your job is to get the crowd to follow you.

Jason Barnard [00:28:05]:

And you get to define exactly

Jason Barnard [00:28:08]:

what you do, and you get to

Jason Barnard [00:28:10]:

define your own crowd and you’re already

Jason Barnard [00:28:12]:

standing in front of them. But it’s also a huge job. I chose the unique name. I believe in unique names. I find that a strategy I’m more comfortable with. But we also help companies who have

Jason Barnard [00:28:23]:

a common name to dominate and get what they call the USPTO, calls it acquired distinction.

Michael Bernzweig [00:28:31]:


Jason Barnard [00:28:32]:

It’s a pseudo trademark that you can get by being so dominant in your market that your name represents that market.

Michael Bernzweig [00:28:40]:

Can you talk a little bit about the components of the Knowledge Graph that

Michael Bernzweig [00:28:45]:

you’re shaping through your strategy that you’re working with these different organizations?

Jason Barnard [00:28:52]:

Yeah, that’s an interesting question as well.

Jason Barnard [00:28:55]:

Because the Knowledge Graph works with entities and relationships between them.

Jason Barnard [00:29:01]:

And I use the example of a family a lot.

Jason Barnard [00:29:05]:

If Google can understand me, I can

Jason Barnard [00:29:09]:

more easily explain to it who my mother is, who my father is, what they do, what they’re expert in, because it’s understood me and it will naturally understand somebody whose relation of me. I can also explain who my children

Jason Barnard [00:29:20]:

are, who my wife is.

Jason Barnard [00:29:22]:

So Google will tend to understand things

Jason Barnard [00:29:26]:

by groups that are linked together by

Jason Barnard [00:29:29]:

close, strong and long relationships, such as family.

Jason Barnard [00:29:33]:

In a family, that’s one thing.

Jason Barnard [00:29:36]:

And we’ve successfully educated Google about the Boowa and Kwala family. The family tree of the cartoon characters I created. That was a fun experiment, but it demonstrated that if I could improve its understanding and its confidence and its understanding

Jason Barnard [00:29:48]:

of the father, I could increase its understanding and confidence of the grandmother at the same time.

Jason Barnard [00:29:56]:

So they work in tandem. And in a business perspective, that means

Jason Barnard [00:30:00]:

that if we can work on the CEO, the founder, the company and the

Jason Barnard [00:30:06]:

main product all at the same time, we will have much more success because Google will understand them as a group and we can develop them as a group.

Jason Barnard [00:30:14]:

And the company’s credibility will help the owner’s credibility. It will also help the CEO’s credibility.

Jason Barnard [00:30:23]:

And the CEO’s credibility. And the founder’s credibility will help the company’s credibility.

Jason Barnard [00:30:28]:

That makes a lot of sense.

Jason Barnard [00:30:30]:

So when we can, that’s what we recommend that people do is build that

Jason Barnard [00:30:35]:

family, let’s call it, of entities together.

Michael Bernzweig [00:30:39]:

And what does an engagement with Kalicube

Michael Bernzweig [00:30:43]:

look like for any of the individuals that are listening to this podcast and

Michael Bernzweig [00:30:48]:

saying, wow, okay, this is different, we

Michael Bernzweig [00:30:51]:

need to do something different.

Michael Bernzweig [00:30:53]:

We need to get started. How would they get the ball rolling with Kalicube?

Jason Barnard [00:31:02]:

As you said earlier, on the work

Jason Barnard [00:31:03]:

we do is mid to long term.

Jason Barnard [00:31:05]:

So if you’re coming on board to get really quick results, that isn’t going to work because we’re working on Google’s

Jason Barnard [00:31:11]:

understanding of who you are, which audience

Jason Barnard [00:31:14]:

you serve, and why you’re credible. So that’s obviously a long term job. We need to educate a machine, and when we’re educating this machine, Google, it’s

Jason Barnard [00:31:20]:

like educating a child.

Jason Barnard [00:31:22]:

We all have children or know people who have children or have nephews and nieces. You can’t expect the child to understand the first time you explain something. You have to explain it over and over again and get corroboration from multiple trusted sources.

Jason Barnard [00:31:35]:

It’s the same with Google.

Jason Barnard [00:31:37]:

Google is a child. You need to educate it and make

Jason Barnard [00:31:41]:

it learn to love you. And that’s what we do. And we do that by proving it.

Jason Barnard [00:31:47]:

Across the entire Internet where Google is watching and Google, the child, is watching you every step of the way. And if you can prove it by

Jason Barnard [00:31:53]:

walking the walk day in, day out, day in, day out for a year, Google will love you and it will love you to death.

Michael Bernzweig [00:32:03]:

I love it. Obviously, we’ll leave links in the show notes so that people can get in touch, but that makes a lot of sense.

Jason Barnard [00:32:11]:

Yeah. So I mean, work with us for

Jason Barnard [00:32:12]:

a year and we will make Google love you. Simple as that.

Michael Bernzweig [00:32:16]:


Michael Bernzweig [00:32:17]:

And I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you, with all of the background that you have and seeing what’s going on with Google’s latest update, which seems to be one of the more massive updates that we’ve seen over the years, can you give us your perspective on

Michael Bernzweig [00:32:36]:

what’s going on for people that might be listening to the podcast?

Jason Barnard [00:32:42]:

Yeah. Well. We don’t focus on the traditional algorithms, which is what everybody’s getting terribly upset about right now. And Google have said this is going to be a massive change. Hold on to your seats, I think they said. And they had to try and roll that back because it scared everybody. What is happening is that they are integrating knowledge into their algorithms much more tightly. They’ve been doing it for the last

Jason Barnard [00:33:04]:

year and a half and we’ve been tracking that.

Jason Barnard [00:33:07]:

So the updates haven’t rolled out fully yet.

Jason Barnard [00:33:12]:

But what we’re seeing right in the middle of the traditional SEO updates that

Jason Barnard [00:33:18]:

are happening is a huge update in the Knowledge Graph. I said to you just before the

Jason Barnard [00:33:22]:

show yesterday, literally yesterday. The size of

Jason Barnard [00:33:25]:

the Knowledge Graph increased by one and

Jason Barnard [00:33:27]:

a half percent in one day.

Jason Barnard [00:33:30]:

That’s huge. It’s increased by… Sorry. It’s increased one and a half percent. If you take that from 50 billion entities, it’s added 3 billion entities overnight. That’s a huge, huge change. So what we’re now seeing is that the traditional SEO updates are now working in tandem with the Knowledge Graph updates.

Jason Barnard [00:33:51]:

That makes the Knowledge Graph the most important foundational building stone for your entire

Jason Barnard [00:34:00]:

search and even Digital Marketing strategy. Because I’m going to reiterate something that

Jason Barnard [00:34:04]:

I mentioned earlier on. All of these machines work the same. If it’s Amazon, Apple, Bing, Microsoft, ChatGPT,

Jason Barnard [00:34:14]:

Google, they all learn by digesting information and trying to turn it into a Knowledge Graph.

Jason Barnard [00:34:20]:

So if you can win the trick

Jason Barnard [00:34:22]:

on Google, you will win the trick on all of these machines.

Jason Barnard [00:34:26]:

And you get self determination in how

Jason Barnard [00:34:29]:

these machines understand you, how they represent

Jason Barnard [00:34:31]:

you, and you have a shield and security for the future.

Jason Barnard [00:34:36]:

Self-determination moving into a world where Generative AI is controlling search and digital.

Jason Barnard [00:34:42]:

In general, self determination, you can’t put a price on that.

Michael Bernzweig [00:34:47]:

That’s fantastic.

Michael Bernzweig [00:34:48]:

Well, like I said, I really appreciate you taking the time out today to bring our Software Spotlight listeners and community up to date on Knowledge Graph and everything going on over there at Brand SERP.

Jason Barnard [00:35:02]:

And you reminded me of something, which is obviously this is all about software. And I just like to point out that Kalicube Pro is a software with a billion data points. And I built it with my own little hands nine years ago and we’re still building it today. So everything that I’ve got in my

Jason Barnard [00:35:17]:

brain, everything I know, everything I’ve understood

Jason Barnard [00:35:20]:

about how to manipulate Google, how to educate Google, how to get Google on your side, how to make you Google-famous so that you attract the right

Jason Barnard [00:35:28]:

people and get the conversions and the engagement that you need.

Jason Barnard [00:35:33]:

All of that is in this machine, which is basically a huge representation of what I’ve got in my brain. And I don’t think there are any other software companies, at least in our

Jason Barnard [00:35:42]:

field, who can come close to that.

Michael Bernzweig [00:35:44]:

And I guess. You know, that brings up one last question. Obviously, you like to refer to yourself as The Brand SERP Guy, but Kalicube is your organization.

Michael Bernzweig [00:35:56]:

And at a high level, it sounds like Kalicube is both a tool that

Michael Bernzweig [00:35:54]:

some organizations are using. But I think what you’re offering at Kalicube is you are actually using the

Michael Bernzweig [00:36:10]:

tool that you built for your clients. Is that accurate?

Jason Barnard [00:36:16]:

Exactly. So if you want to get the

Jason Barnard [00:36:20]:

benefits of Kalicube Pro, the tool, a billion data points that will push your brand to exactly the right places for your audience with the right content, at the right time, in the right priority, and also get Google to understand it so it represents you as a superstar within your industry. We’re the ones who can offer the service. The number of agencies who we allow to use Kalicube Pro is very, very limited. So we have a unique machine, and

Jason Barnard [00:36:44]:

if you want to work with us,

Jason Barnard [00:36:46]:

or with an agency who uses the platform, work with the best, because we’ve got the machine and nobody else does. I mean, I hate to say it.

Jason Barnard [00:36:58]:

Sounds very pretentious, but you don’t have a choice. Sorry.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:02]:

I love it.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:02]:


Jason Barnard [00:37:03]:

That sounds horrible. I’ve just realized how horrible that sounds.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:06]:

No worries. But no, I mean, at the end of the day, it would almost be as if you were going to Google.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:12]:

And say, hey, Google, handle our advertising and marketing. Obviously, you guys developed the tool.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:20]:

You’ve licensed some agencies to use the tool.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:22]:

But what’s better than having you use the tool yourself and get the results that people need?

Jason Barnard [00:37:28]:


Jason Barnard [00:37:29]:

Thank you very much. You said it much more nicely than I did.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:32]:

No, it’s okay. So I want to share that coming up on our next episode of the Software Spotlight, we’re actually going to be breaking some groundbreak breaking research on AI for the first time from an individual that, quite honestly, you will not find a single word about this researcher online anywhere.

Michael Bernzweig [00:37:58]:

His name is Pratik. He’s a cybersecurity researcher, very high level. He’s a Google Scholar, and in his

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:09]:

research has explored the intersection of AI,

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:12]:

blockchain and data privacy.

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:16]:

This research will be revealed for the first time on Software Spotlight and quite honestly, should be very interesting to anyone

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:28]:

in the field of AI.

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:30]:

His research work includes developing zero-trust block, blockchain framework for secure health data

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:38]:

management, and geneticsec ops, which uses genetic algorithms for automated security testing.

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:47]:

Pratik’s research aims to address key challenges around data privacy and security in the

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:54]:

era of Generative AI. So be sure to tune in for

Michael Bernzweig [00:38:58]:

our next episode, and I think that’ll be very interesting. And be sure to visit our website, softwareoasis.com, to access our free weekly software

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:08]:

newsletter and sign up for our upcoming

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:10]:

2024 software webinar series, which happens every week right here. And just to let everybody know if

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:20]:

you enjoyed our episode today, coming up

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:22]:

on May 8th, Jason will be joining us for our webinar unlocking growth through lead generation, which always proves to be one of our most exciting and well-attended webinars. This will be the second time we’ve run this webinar as we had so much interest on the topic of online lead generation.

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:42]:

And we’ll have a whole new panel

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:44]:

of guests on this lead generation webinar. And Jason, we’re really looking forward to having you on that.

Michael Bernzweig [00:39:51]:

And thank you for joining us on the Software Spotlight this week.

Jason Barnard [00:39:55]:

Thank you so much, Michael, that was an absolute delight.

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