Do you find yourself:
Overwhelmed by the amount of work it takes to get in front of your ideal customers Frustrated because you’re not sure what’s working and what’s not Invisible because your marketing efforts aren’t paying off Then this episode is for you!
This is part 2 of a conversation with Jason Barnard. Part 1 can be found here How Google Helps Build Your Personal Brand – How Google understands and why it is important- Part 1 – https://paulcopcutt.com/episode82/
You will learn:
Jason Barnard’s unique perspective as an outsider to the Google algorithm The importance of reviews and how to deal with bad ones The fact that Google differentiates between types of content when choosing what to rank on the search engine results page “I found a niche in my industry, and it’s what your audience sees when they Google your brand. And it’s this wild, strange niche that’s actually applicable to everybody. Every person, every company, every film, every music album, every music group, every event, everyone”
Jason Barnard is going to show you how important SEO is to the visibility and credibility of your brand. He’s going to preview the solution or system he used to get increased visibility and credibility.
He tells the story of how he found a niche in the SEO industry that is applicable to everyone. He talks about how he was endorsed by John Mueller, one of the main SEO experts at Google.
He also talks about how he has a client who has 27,000 reviews with an average score of 4.7. He says that bad reviews are a part of life and that they can teach you what you need to improve. He also talks about how the type of content you have on your website does matter to Google.
A Preview of the Conversation About Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) Being an Expert on Google
[00:00:00] Paul Copcutt: You might be asking yourself how important SEO is to the visibility and the credibility of your brand and is it just for bigger brands and bigger companies, but that’s really not the case.
[00:00:13] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I found a niche in my industry, and it’s what your audience sees when they google your brand name. And it’s this wild, strange niche that’s actually applicable to everybody, every person, every company, every film, every music album, every music group, every event, every podcast, every product.
[00:00:32] Paul Copcutt: And when you have the head of the largest search engine in the world endorsing you, then this is somebody that you’re going to want to sit up and pay attention to.
[00:00:45] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): John Mueller, who’s the representative for Google, front facing for the entire SEO industry, said within Google, the Knowledge Panel is for us, it’s just an algorithm. Outside of Google, nobody understands more than Jason Barnard. So, he’s saying basically I actually know more than the people at Google, not because I know more than they do about their algorithms, but because I know how to manipulate the algorithm from the outside.
Introducing the Topic of the Podcast: Reviews, Brand SERPs, Knowledge Panels, and Jason Barnard’s History as a Musician
[00:01:13] Paul Copcutt: That’s my guest this week, Jason Barnard. In fact, this is part two of the episode from episode 82, where we get in more into Google reviews and understanding more about the Knowledge Panel, the search engine results page with Jason. And we also go a little bit into Jason’s background and where he came from in terms of punk rock and a whole bunch of other interesting parts of his history. All of which you’ll find when you google him, but it’s not as much as what he’s known for now. All that after the break.
[00:01:52] Paul Copcutt: Welcome to the Personally Brandtastic Podcast, where we help you build your personal brand and business so that people can find you easily, want to work with you, and can’t wait to refer you. My name is Paul Copcutt. And every day I work with real estate investors, professionals, and business owners, who want to stand out from the crowd and attract more of the right opportunities without feeling inauthentic or spending all day doing it. It’s all about communicating how personally brandtastic you are. Because marketing is how to get their attention, but personal branding is why they choose you. Now, back to the show.
The Importance of Reviews for Google: Expertise, Authority, Trustworthiness, and Credibility
[00:02:26] Paul Copcutt: You mentioned earlier about five gold stars. What importance does Google place on reviews and things like that?
[00:02:37] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): An awful lot of importance. We talk about credibility. Credibility is what we as humans understand, and I like the word credibility, but Google talks about expertise, authority, and trustworthiness. And really simply put, expertise is what you are saying. Is it true? Is it believable? Are you accurate? Is it a reliable solution?
[00:02:58] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Authority is what your peers say about you. Either what they’re saying about you, whether they’re sharing about you, or if they’re citing you. So, it’s peer approval. And then trustworthiness is client approval. So, that’s going to be forums, it’s going to be social media, and it’s going to be those review stars on reputable review platforms.
[00:03:19] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And one thing that is interesting is as with the knowledge, industry specific review platforms are even though much smaller than something like Trustpilot, the industry specific platform will have more power as long as Google has understood that it’s incredibly relevant to you and to your audience.
What Are the Things You Have to Do When You Receive Bad Reviews?
[00:03:39] Paul Copcutt: What do you do about bad reviews?
[00:03:42] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): You reply to them. You take the conversation as soon as you can. Once you’ve replied to it on the platform, you take the conversation off the platform to avoid any back and forth aggressiveness. You sort the problem out if you can. For some people, you just can’t sort the problem out. And you just have to let it lie, and that’s it.
[00:04:00] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And you just have to accept that bad review and try to get them to change the review to something more positive, not necessarily five stars, but certainly less negative than it was. If they don’t, don’t fret about it because everybody gets bad reviews sometimes. Both people and Google understand that.
If Your Service Is Good, Your Clients and Customers Will Give You Good Reviews
[00:04:19] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And I had a client and I said to them, we need to get loads of reviews. If we want to rank number one for our product throughout France, we need to get loads of reviews. And they said, oh, what if people give us bad reviews? And I said, well, if you think they’re going to give you bad reviews, then your service isn’t very good. You need to sort your service out. If your service is good, they’ll give you good reviews. And they started a campaign, and that was four years ago. They got 27,000 reviews with an average score of 4.7.
[00:04:49] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): So, they no longer have to worry even a little bit about bad reviews, because they’ve got some 1 star reviews. They replied to them. They sorted them out there. Some of them changed, some of them didn’t. But once you’ve got 27,000 reviews because your client service is that very good, you don’t have very much to worry about.
A 4-Star Rating and Above Is Okay, But Some People Find It Suspicious When They See 5-Star Reviews
[00:05:08] Paul Copcutt: And I think there was some research out there that said people don’t believe 5 star reviews anyway. So if you’ve got an average of 4.7 to 4.2 or something, then people believe that. But anything less than that, they could be sketchy. Anything above that, no, it’s bots.
[00:05:27] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Right. Yeah. A hundred percent. I’ve got a series of online courses to tell you about my other product. And one of the lessons is about review platforms and how to deal with them. I’ve given you a lot of the advice just now for free, but one of the things is that anything under 4, even 3.9 is no good. Once you hit 4, you’re okay. If you hit 5, it’s suspicious to everybody. You’re right a hundred percent. I see 5 stars and I think, no.
Bad Reviews Are Part and Parcel of Life; You Can Sort Them Out by Giving a Better Offer Through One Email
[00:05:57] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. It’s funny. When I buy something online, I look at the reviews first before I buy. And I’m scrolling down looking for the bad ones because I want to know there are some.
[00:06:09] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I think as human beings, we want to have that 5 star review because we don’t want to say, oh, I’m not as good as I thought I was. But the bad review makes sense. It’s part and parcel of life. And also, the bad reviews are what teach you what you can improve.
[00:06:27] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): If everyone’s just saying how wonderful you are, a lot of people filter the reviews that they ask for. They filter it through something to make sure they don’t ask unhappy clients. If you’re doing that, then you’ve got a fundamental problem with the way you’re treating your clients. And the bad reviews should teach you what you need to improve.
[00:06:46] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And I used to say this with Boowa and Kwala. I can’t remember why I was saying it with the blue dog and yellow koala. Oh, yeah, because we used to get loads of reviews for the paid service that we had on the platform. And I told my team, if somebody gives us a bad review and you can sort it. out, you sort it out in one email. You make them one offer that they think is great. That person will actually like us more than the person who gave us the 5 star review in the first place. And the fact that that review has changed from 1 star to 5 stars, Google sees that. That’s an incredibly positive signal.
The Type of Content You Present Is a Mixture of Where It’s Housed, Who’s Publishing It, and Its Quality and Suitability
[00:07:23] Paul Copcutt: Great tip. That’s it. Excellent. That makes total sense as well. What about the type of content? Does Google differentiate and say, oh, that’s a video and therefore we’re going to preference it, or that’s a podcast, so they must be an expert because they’ve been on a podcast? Or does it look more about where that’s housed?
[00:07:46] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. It’s actually a mixture of where it’s housed, who’s publishing it, and the quality of the content and its suitability for Google’s users. So, what it tries to do is when you’re searching, it tries to imagine which is going to be the best format. So, a recipe would be a list. If I’m looking for the lyrics to a song, it would be the lyrics written on a web page. But if I’m looking to listen to the song, it would be Spotify. So, the format depends on the way the user wants to consume.
[00:08:26] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And for example, a mobile, more and more people consume video as we get more and more bandwidth. And people are sitting on the train watching these videos. So, video becomes incredibly popular. And from Google’s point of view, it’s saying which is the appropriate format for consumption by my user when they’re trying to find the solution to their problem, whatever that might be.
A Brief Commercial About a Professional Website Builder Called Up in a Day
[00:08:49] Paul Copcutt: Right. I’m going to interrupt you a second and ask about the website, your website, because a simple website shouldn’t take months to get up and running for your business. Up in a Day builds professional websites fast with a process that requires minimal efforts, so you can focus on growing your client list, while Up in a Day takes care of building your website fast, easy SEO optimised, and built to help grow your business. Check them out and book a consultation with them at www.upinaday.co. That’s www.upinaday.co. Now, back to the show.
Your Brand SERP Should Show the Ways of How Your Audience Can Interact With You
[00:09:30] Paul Copcutt: So, when we’re looking at that SERP page, that’s why you see web pages, couple of videos, maybe a podcast, maybe something else.
[00:09:39] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. And if you look at my Brand SERP to come back to that, you said my site is at the top, Jason Barnard, so that’s my Entity Home. Then you’ve got my company website, kalicube.com, if you want to do business with me. Then you’ve got Twitter because I tweet a lot. Then you’ve got videos, because I’ve got lots of videos knocking about out there. And then you’ve got LinkedIn. And then you’ve got my articles from Search Engine Journal, Search Engine Land.
[00:10:03] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): So, what it’s doing is it’s saying the person who’s searching for Jason Barnard is looking for ways to interact with him. And there are articles, there are videos, there are podcasts, my podcast guests as well. There is this company if they want to do business with me, plus there’s the Knowledge Panel that explains the facts as we see them.
Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) on Finding a Niche in the SEO Industry, Which Is All About Brand SERPs
[00:10:22] Paul Copcutt: And this approach could apply, you’ve mentioned people and brands. It could apply to your personal brand equally. So, somebody that wants to be known as an influencer or build their brand that way, same thing.
[00:10:37] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. A hundred percent. The thing is I found a niche in my industry, and it’s what your audience sees when they google your brand name. And it’s this wild, strange niche that’s actually applicable to everybody, every person, every company, every film, every music album, every music group, every event, every podcast, every product. So, potentially, my tiny company in the South of France has literally 15 billion clients or 15 billion entities that I could be working on, probably more.
How Did Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) End Up Living in France?
[00:11:11] Paul Copcutt: Right. So, how did you end up in France?
[00:11:17] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): For love actually. I fell in love with a young French lady when I was 17. She was 15. We exchanged postcards for five years. You can imagine I was living in Liverpool. The postman, who was delivering the postcards, must have been giggling his head off with these idiotic teenage romance letters. And then I went to France because I was in love with this girl when I was 22 and she was 20. And I turned up at her house, knocked on the door, and she went, oh. She pointed behind her, and her boyfriend appeared right behind her. It was a love story gone wrong.
[00:12:03] Paul Copcutt: Oh, dear. So, you never persuaded her to dump the boyfriend?
[00:12:10] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): She contacted me recently and said, maybe I made a mistake. But no, she’s lovely, and I get on with her very well. And I ended up marrying a different French lady.
Jason Barnard’s Story of How He Started Playing the Double Bass to Join a Punk Folk Band Called The Barking Dogs
[00:12:24] Paul Copcutt: Right. Wonderful. And I was enjoying The Barking…
[00:12:29] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Dogs.
[00:12:29] Paul Copcutt: Dogs. Yes. I was enjoying such a great combo of punk and scar. It’s pretty unusual to see a double bass inside a punk band.
[00:12:44] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. Well, we were actually playing in the street. They were playing folk music with a bit of Pogues-y punk attitude. And then they said to me, if you want to join the band, you have to play the double bass. I said, but I don’t play the double bass. And they said, well, that’s the only way you’re getting in the band. So, I bought a double bass and learned to play it so I could be in the band.
[00:13:04] Paul Copcutt: Cool.
[00:13:04] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And we ended up, and as you say, we played the Ace of Spades, which is maybe the one you saw, with mandolin, violin, double bass, and drums. And it sounds pretty punk.
Jason Barnard on Being a Big Fan of the Heavy Metal Band, Motorhead, While Living in the Countryside
[00:13:15] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I saw a couple off the playlist on YouTube that were the Ace of Spades, which is one of my favourite songs of all time.
[00:13:24] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:13:26] Paul Copcutt: It’s funny actually. My brother was in a punk band, and then I didn’t realise, but Motorhead had a big punk following.
[00:13:34] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Oh, yes. Yeah. I was a punk in Yorkshire when I lived in the countryside. So, I was this punk with the hair. And the only creatures there that saw me were cows and sheeps. It was completely pointless, but I loved Motorhead. Motorhead were one of my favs. And yeah, you had this big cult punk following for Motorhead, and all other heavy metal groups were just not cool.
More About Rock Bands, Watching Them Play and Playing Alongside Some of Them
[00:14:01] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. And my brother used to follow. He actually got to know Lemmy, so he used to get backstage. If he’d turn up in the middle of nowhere in the UK and the Motorhead were playing, then he’d get into the backstage and get onto the floor.
[00:14:17] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Oh, brilliant. Oh, I’m terribly, terribly envious now.
[00:14:22] Paul Copcutt: Me too. He lived the punk life. I just followed it to surreptitiously via his stories, but he’s still a punk. He still plays, still follows. U.K. Subs was his big band.
[00:14:38] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I saw them. The leading singer is called Charlie Harper, wasn’t he? And I saw them in the Gibus in Paris, when I got to Paris. And I was maybe 24, 25. And it turns out he was pretty old. I was 25. He must have been 45. I thought he was like this old man. And relatively speaking for those punk groups, he was. He was a good 20, 25 years older than most punks.
Paul Copcutt’s Brother on Having a Chance to Play as a Drummer for the U.K. Subs Because He Knows Every Song
[00:15:05] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. I don’t know if he’s still singing, but the U.K. Subs are still playing. My brother went out to, I think it may have been pre-COVID, but he followed them around the West Coast of the US for a while, because he took two weeks off and just followed them. But on his 50th birthday, he was sitting at home, he got a phone call. Around about his 50th birthday, he’s got a phone call and it was the U.K. Subs. And they said, what are you doing tonight? And he said, why? And they said, we’re playing at such and such and we’re down a drummer. Do you want to come and do few for us? And he ended up drumming for the U.K. Subs.
[00:15:48] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Oh, brilliant.
[00:15:49] Paul Copcutt: Because he knows every song.
[00:15:50] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And he played some, I would imagine. Otherwise they wouldn’t have asked him. Because if he goes and he didn’t play the drums, another song, but I just can’t play the drums, but I’ll give it a go.
[00:15:59] Paul Copcutt: Right.
While Being With The Barking Dogs, Jason Barnard Had a Chance to Play With Captain Sensible in Germany
[00:16:02] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): All of those kind of stories, I love it. Because when I was back 28 with The Barking Dogs, we went and played in Germany, and we supported Captain Sensible. And as a punk, he’s one of these great heroes. I just remember knocking on his dressing door and he said, oh, I’ve got chicken pox. And it might well have been he was just making that up, because he didn’t want some fawning ex-punk coming up and telling him how wonderful he is.
[00:16:32] Paul Copcutt: Right. Yeah. That’s wonderful. You should get on a podcast. There is a guy in the UK that does Punks In Pubs. So, it’s an in-person podcast, but he interviews former punks over a pint of beer in a pub in wherever.
Jason Barnard on Having a Mohawk Hair Whenever He Went to Gigs of Rock Bands Like the Dead Kennedys
[00:16:49] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Oh, I could do that because I was an absolute rubbish punk, because I had the Mohawk thing going on. But I could never be bothered actually to get them to stick up, so they flop down. So, I look like this new romantic punk. It was really weird, but with all the punk gear, but with this floppy Mohawk thing that never went up.
[00:17:11] Paul Copcutt: My brother used egg whites, I think. That’s what he used to use, egg whites and hairspray.
[00:17:17] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. I did it from time to time when I went to a gig or something, went to see the Dead Kennedys, of course. But just day to day, you think what an absolute phenomenal effort it was. And of course, the only creatures who would’ve seen it were the cows and the sheep, so it was pretty pointless.
Kalicube Pro on Offering a Saas Platform and a Done-for-You Service to Manage Knowledge Panels and Brand SERPs
[00:17:34] Paul Copcutt: How can people find out more about your company and the products?
[00:17:38] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I’m actually changing my approach is that I was trying to get, a long story, but I thought I could build Kalicube Pro to be a SaaS platform anyone could use. And I got some people. I got a basketball player on. And he seemed to understand, and he just totally messed it up. And he threw everything, basically, he threw his entire digital ecosystem in the toilet. So, I now had to pick it back off him.
[00:18:03] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And so, what I’m now doing is we do a done-for-you service with the platform. And we work on the Knowledge Panel over three months. We do the Brand SERP and the Knowledge Panel. And then we basically sort out your entire Google business card. And we get you a Knowledge Panel built as it should be built and not with the cheeky tactics that some people use, that are basically spam and Google will punish them.
[00:18:26] Paul Copcutt: Right. The black hat stuff.
Jason Barnard on Recording a Knowledge Panel Course and on Realising That the Principle of His Offers Is Simple But the Execution is Very Nuanced
[00:18:29] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. And then I’m going to record a course to that as well. Basically, the platform is either we do it as an agency or we have some agencies who use the platform. And they pay a subscription for the year, and then they do the same thing we do, but they do it for their client’s white label. And then we had the courses, and I’m about to record the Knowledge Panel course. And the agencies that use the platform have to take the courses in order to be qualified to use the platform.
[00:18:58] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Because I’ve realised, I’ve explained it to you, and you understand the principle of it. And the principle of it is incredibly simple. But actually, the execution I now realise is very nuanced, and get it wrong and the whole thing goes out the window. And the nuanced nature of it hadn’t really struck me, and I now realise that it’s a dangerous tool to be left in the hands of fools. I just made that up. That’s my new favourite quote.
The Kalicube Academy Is Generally Available With Courses About the Fundamentals, Rich Elements, and ORM
[00:19:30] Paul Copcutt: That’s your new tagline. So, the Academy, you’re not going to make that available generally.
[00:19:38] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): No. It’s available generally. You can come on and take the courses. I recorded them a couple years ago in Kyiv. And what’s really interesting is two years later, we were redoing some of the slides to make it more engaging. I listened to the course. And I was thinking, two years down the line and I didn’t realise I knew quite that much two years ago. You know what I mean? And I was thinking this all makes sense. It all makes so much sense. It’s well explained, and I’m pretty pleased with myself, as you can see. Oh, look at me.
[00:20:13] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): But what we’re missing right now is the Knowledge Panel course. So, I’ve set my August. I’m going to sit down. I’m going to write it and record it. Because we’ve got a fundamentals course, a course for the Rich Elements, like the Twitter boxes, the video boxes, and so on and so forth, and getting rid of negative results, which is obviously online reputation management. So, we’re going to add the fourth course, which is going to be Knowledge Panels.
What Is the Cost of the Courses in the Kalicube Academy?
[00:20:39] Paul Copcutt: And what’s the cost of the Academy?
[00:20:42] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): It’s 160 euros per course. There are three courses right now, but Katrina is the person who deals with it. And then we’ve got a lady called Faith, who actually runs the Academy, who deals with the students. And we’ve got quizzes and certification, that kind of thing that she’s added. And it’s a really good team. You’ve talked with Joan. Yeah. I really, really am enjoying working with this team. What Katrina tends to do is say if you buy two courses, we’ll give you the third one free.
A Case Where Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) Helps a Basketball Player With His Entity Identity
[00:21:16] Paul Copcutt: Right. Makes sense. So, your service, you mentioned the basketball player. So, for a former athlete, your service could be really beneficial, couldn’t it? Because previously they’re known as the basketball player or whatever, but now they want to be known as X.
[00:21:37] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. Exactly. They want to change what we call Entity Identity. So, they want to change how Google perceives them, was a basketball player is now an entrepreneur, but then he’s going to have a business. So, he wants some Knowledge Panels for his business as well. And the way that, as I was saying earlier on, if she’s got a business and a person, we’ve got a famous person who runs a business. So, we’ve got a leg up for the business, makes that easier.
The Weight of Evidence for Sports Is High, But You Can Use the Idea of a Timeline for Google to Understand the Things That Are in the Past
[00:22:02] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And then we can change the person, once we’ve got the business going, in Google’s brain. So, what you do is you say, I’ve got a famous person, put the business onto it, push the business up here, and then put the basketball player into the business category. And Bob’s your uncle. That will take quite a long time, because stuff like sport and music and films are very difficult to overpower.
[00:22:24] Paul Copcutt: I’ll bet. Yeah.
[00:22:25] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Because the weight of it, the weight of evidence is what’s going to play. And the weight of evidence for basketball is going to be high. But what I learned with myself is you can use the idea of timeline to say to Google, this is actually now in the past. And that’s one of the tricks we play.
Paul Copcutt on Doing Personal Branding for Former Athletes
[00:22:40] Paul Copcutt: Right. Yeah. The reason I ask is a little side piece of my business is I do personal branding for former athletes.
[00:22:49] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Oh, right.
[00:22:50] Paul Copcutt: It’s through a company, so they find me the clients. But they come to me because I’m the personal brand expert, and I work with them in their initial brand development or recognising what their personal brand is. But the biggest challenge they have is what do they do after sport. Because there’s some crazy number, like 3 out of 5 athletes are bankrupt within five years of leaving professional sport.
[00:23:15] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Really?
[00:23:16] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. They throw money at silly stuff or they get ripped off by family, friends.
Using the Trick of the Entity Home, Corroboration, and Timeline to Overpower the Weight of Evidence of Sports
[00:23:24] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. Right. Because I was looking at the potential for athletes and for film stars, whatever. And I was thinking athletes, they don’t need my services. I had one because he wanted to get rid of his wife on his Knowledge Panel. And what we did was build up, what I was saying earlier on, his template. And we said which is the piece of information that Google would want to show.
[00:23:49] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And we figured out from a hundred NBA players that it was the number on the back of his shirt and the salary. So, we promoted those in Google’s brain and gotten rid of his wife, not in a nasty sense, but that’s the only case I’ve had of a sports player. But a past sports player wanting to change identity, as I say, it would be a bigger job than three months because of the weight of the evidence.
[00:24:17] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): But the trick is truly the Entity Home, explaining it, corroboration. And the huge trick there would be to make sure that you explain the timeline to Google. Because then you immediately put the basketball in the past. And once you’ve done that, Google goes, right, okay. It’s relevant, but it isn’t the most relevant. Sorry.
If a Previous Sports Athlete Is Doing Something Significant Now, Their Knowledge Panel Description Can Be Easily Changed
[00:24:38] Paul Copcutt: No, it’s okay. I’m going to keep it in mind. I just finished some work with a former NHL player. He’s got great stats. He went to the Stanley Cup three times, but that’s not who he is now. And he’s been out of the game 5, 6 years, but you look his name up and that’s all you see.
[00:24:59] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Right. If he’s doing something significant now, we can change that. But as I said, that’s going to be longer than 3 months, but we can definitely change it. But you do need to have something substantial, something that makes sense. If he just said I sit around on the beach all day drinking pina coladas, no hope on Earth we’re going to get his name and then lazy lay about on the beach as a subtitle.
Writing a Book and Being an Author Carries Weight and Credibility That Could Easily Change Your Knowledge Panel Description
[00:25:30] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. No, he’s trying to figure out. He’s got two or three options, which are all good. But yeah, he’s going to reach a point where he’s going to need to have that, I think.
[00:25:40] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): One of the things he can do is write a book. I’ve got people who help me with this book, a guy called Scott Turman. We work in partnership as well, and he leverages books to move things around like that. So, we actually work together. His team writes the book, and then we prepare the Knowledge Panel and the Brand SERP whilst they’re writing the book. And then we hit it basically very hard once the book comes out. And switching to author is relatively one of the easier things to do because of Google Books.
[00:26:10] Paul Copcutt: It’s funny, isn’t it? How much a book still carries weight and credibility.
With the Help of BrightRay Publishing, Jason Barnard Wrote a Book and Changed His Description From Musician to Author
[00:26:17] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. Once your guy decides what he wants to do, you say, write a book about it and you’ll immediately have credibility and authority for people. And it will also tickle the right places in Google’s mind. And a company like BrightRay Publishing do a really good job of it. I’m very pleased with what they did for me. And it is a really neat way to move the needle on something difficult like music.
[00:26:43] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I move from musician to author, thanks to the book. I actually did it without Google Books because I wanted the challenge. But switching from musician is difficult because there’s so many databases about musicians. And all of my records were up there, and Boowa and Kwala were musicians as well. So if I can pull that off, and it took me two weeks from the day we launched the book to switch from musician to author.
[00:27:11] Paul Copcutt: Yes.
Using the Power of the Entity Home and Kalicube Pro, You Can Easily Update References and Corroborate Information About You
[00:27:12] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): That’s the power of the Entity Home. I couldn’t do that for anybody else, because the Entity Home for Google for me is so solidly stuck in its brain. What I did with Kalicube Pro is I changed it on my own website and then updated all of the different references to me within three hours.
[00:27:30] Paul Copcutt: Wow.
[00:27:31] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And that’s because I just got the list on Kalicube Pro. I just click on the link, change it, bingo, Bob’s you uncle. It took me 3 hours and 70 corroboration sources, all of which updated at the same time. So, Google came to my website, saw Jason Barnard as an author, and then everywhere it went it said, it’s changed absolutely everywhere, he must be an author. And it switched.
[00:27:54] Paul Copcutt: Amazing.
Jason Barnard on Never Getting Bored of Brand SERPs, Knowledge Panels, and Educating Google the Child
[00:27:55] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): It’s cool, isn’t it? As I said, I never get bored of this thing. And yeah, I was talking to my ex-wife the other day. And I was saying, oh, I’m struggling a little bit a few months ago, struggling a little bit with the business, and I wasn’t quite sure what I was going to do. And she said, it’s always saying with you, isn’t it? You do it, you push it to a certain point, and then you think, oh. You get bored, and you’re going to do something else.
[00:28:19] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I was trying to convince her that this time Brand SERPs, Knowledge Panels, and Google as a child, educating Google, this is something I won’t ever get bored of because there’s so much in it. And the idea of educating this machine that’s running and learning faster than we can possibly imagine. And you’re thinking, I’ll never keep up. And I know I’ll never keep up, but that’s what’s fun.
Can Following Your Passion Become Tiring and a Challenge Because It Becomes Repetitive?
[00:28:40] Paul Copcutt: Right. Do you think that’s a little bit of a challenge for a serial entrepreneur or following your passion? That you end up getting into your passion, and then after a while, it does become less of a passion because it becomes repetitive. And therefore you tend to go, oh, maybe that wasn’t what I truly should be doing. And I look for something else.
[00:29:06] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. I think it can be a problem. For me, I’ve been lucky and it hasn’t been a problem. Because being in a punk folk band, you never get bored of that. And music is something, however much you play, you never master it. So, you’re always learning. And then the blue dog and yellow koala cartoons, that could have got repetitive.
[00:29:23] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): But then when you are saying every single episode of the TV series we made, for example, every single month on the website, we were doing something that made sense to a small child in their day-to-day life. And when you look at a child’s day-to-day life, it’s endlessly interesting. There’s endlessly new things to do and to see. And you’re just thinking, anything we put in here is going to be interesting for the kid. And it’s incredibly interesting. I found it deeply, passionately enjoyable to create these simple scenarios and games and songs that kids can relate to.
It Is Endlessly Interesting for Jason Barnard to Present to People Things That They Don’t Know and Don’t Understand About Brand SERPs and Google
[00:30:00] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And the whole thing of bringing it all down to that, we’re not teaching explicitly. We are presenting something to you that you know, but you don’t necessarily understand. And we’re presenting it in a way that makes sense. And that is endlessly, endlessly interesting for me. And now, Brand SERPs and Knowledge Panels and educating Google.
[00:30:21] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Somebody asked today which social media platforms appear in the Knowledge Panel, on the right hand side of Google search results. And of course, I’ve got a database with 200 million data points in it. And I just went in and I went, oh. And I pulled it out, and the answer was 28% Twitter. And somebody said, oh, what about TikTok? And TikTok was like 1.38% for people and 0.7% for companies. And for me, that’s endlessly interesting as well.
Based on Jason Barnard’s Database, the Top Social Media Platform Is Twitter for People and LinkedIn for Companies
[00:30:47] Paul Copcutt: That is fascinating. So, was Twitter the top thing?
[00:30:53] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. Twitter is top in Knowledge Panels for people, but LinkedIn, it’s top in Knowledge Panels for companies.
[00:31:01] Paul Copcutt: That makes some sense. I could see.
[00:31:03] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): It does. And a lot of what I say to people, they go, yeah, of course, that’s really obvious. And then you go, it was only obvious after I said it, it wasn’t obvious before. And then somebody said, what about different industries? And I said, well, I’ve got the data in the database, but then that’s the paid SaaS platform, where you come on with your industry, and that’s where we give you that additional value. I can tell you for companies, it’s LinkedIn generally. But in the real estate industry, maybe it’s something outside I haven’t looked.
Jason Barnard’s Evolving Database and Kalicube Pro’s Templating of Brand SERPs and Knowledge Panels
[00:31:28] Paul Copcutt: Right. And that’s the beauty, that’s the uniqueness that you’ve got around this Knowledge Panels. Because you are building an evolving database all the time. So in three months time, TikTok could be 2.5%.
[00:31:46] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Somebody asked that. So, I look back a year. And it’s 1.38% now, and it was 0.7% a year ago. And the database goes back five years. So, I can actually pull all this data up and say this is how it’s evolving, this is how things have changed.
[00:31:59] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): The other thing we can do that I really enjoy is templated Brand SERPs and templated Knowledge Panels. Whereby if you give me 70 equivalents of your entity, so same entity type, person, company, music group, whatever, in the same geo region, in the same industry. So example, if you gave me 70 punk bands, I could template for you both the Brand SERP and the Knowledge Panel for a punk band, which would be different for a punk band than it would be for a new romantics band or a dance band or a techno band.
[00:32:35] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And I love that idea. And this is part of the Kalicube Pro SaaS platform is we template. So we say, this is what you’re aiming for, globally speaking, obviously. This is what Google likes. This is what your industry looks like. That’s where you’re headed.
Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) on Being Acknowledged as an Expert on Google as an Outsider
[00:32:49] Paul Copcutt: No. Good one. Because you are not claiming it, but you are leveraging it to the absolute degree that you can.
[00:32:58] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. I’m educating the child.
[00:33:00] Paul Copcutt: And the engineers at Google are always figuring out, how can we change that?
[00:33:06] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Right. Well, in fact, John Mueller, who’s the representative for Google, front facing for the entire SEO industry, said within Google, the Knowledge Panel is for us it’s just an algorithm. Outside of Google, nobody understands more than Jason Barnard. So, he’s saying basically I actually know more than the people at Google, not because I know more than they do about their algorithms, but because I know how to manipulate the algorithm from the outside.
[00:33:35] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I got invited to New York to speak at a Knowledge Graph conference. And I said, why do you want me? I don’t know anything about Knowledge Graphs. I’ve never built one. And they said, exactly, you’re the only person we’ve ever heard of who changes and feeds Knowledge Graphs from the outside without having any access to the algorithms and the data.
[00:33:53] Paul Copcutt: Wow.
Jason Barnard on Managing to Trick Google’s NLP to Understand That He Plays an Instrument That Doesn’t Exist
[00:33:54] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And so, I hear you going, wow. All of a sudden I’m going, oh, I’m doing something original and interesting and pretty tricky. And I was talking with the guy at Google, because I managed to trick Google’s NLP to understand that Jason Barnard is a grooty poo player. And I understood that grooty poo player referred to me. And grooty poo doesn’t exist. I made up the word. And then I was going to invent this musical instrument called a grooty poo, and I was going to invent this entire story and have a Knowledge Panel for the grooty poo.
[00:34:29] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And I had the whole story. It was that it’s called a grooty poo because it was a reed instrument in Mauritius. And when you blew in it, it went like poo. And then the grooty was great in the Mauritian vernacular. And I was talking to him and he said, yeah, if you want to do that experiment, don’t tell anybody because you actually have a responsibility. Because in the wrong hands, that could go horribly wrong. And he’s right. I could do that. And he’s saying, I’m sure you could do it, but if you do it, don’t tell anybody.
Doing an Experiment on Google Can Be Potentially Dangerous, Especially With People Who Want to Use It for Their Benefit
[00:35:04] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): And I actually had people ask me, can you invent a human being because I want to hide? Basically, I’m doing something illegal. I want an invented human being to hide behind. And immediately, people are thinking all of that things. And you go, yeah, that would get dangerous.
[00:35:20] Paul Copcutt: Yeah. I could see. There’s always going to be somebody trying to figure out the worst way to use it, I’m sure.
[00:35:26] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): Yeah. I’m one of the nice guys, and I’m terribly innocent. So, yeah, I’m naive and innocent and I need people to tell me to grow up.
Interact With Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) in Whichever Way You Want Just by Searching Him on Google
[00:35:38] Paul Copcutt: How can people find out more about you, Jason, more about your company and the product?
[00:35:43] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I’ll bet most people can guess what I’m going to say right at this moment. You search my name on Google, and then the Google business card gives you the choice of how you want to interact with me. That’s what I like about the Google business card. So, you search my name and you think I’m interested in Jason Barnard as a human being. Click on the first link, my website. I want to do business with this guy. Click on the second link, kalicube.com.
[00:36:06] The Brand SERP Guy (Jason Barnard): I want to interact with him on Twitter. Go to my Twitter account, which is third. I want to take Jason Barnard’s courses. Kalicube.academy, that will be up there. I want to buy his book. That will be up there as well. I want to read his articles for free. Search Engine Journal, Search Engine Land are there. I want to listen to his podcast. The podcast box is there. It’s up to you to decide how you want to interact with me.
[00:36:28] Paul Copcutt: If you enjoyed that episode of the Personally Brandtastic Podcast, I’d really appreciate it if you went along to Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts and leave a review. And if you don’t already follow and subscribe, I’d love it if you join us. Catch you next time on the Personally Brandtastic Podcast.